tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8371628584376797540.post1589799433190788223..comments2023-12-26T23:07:08.005-08:00Comments on TOMORROWVILLE: A POV Curriculum, Part IDavid Isaakhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04928598446742324391noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8371628584376797540.post-41911789662080680972009-03-27T21:23:00.000-07:002009-03-27T21:23:00.000-07:00Ah, Tim, you're ahead of me!Also "The Jane Austen ...Ah, Tim, you're ahead of me!<BR/><BR/>Also "The Jane Austen Book Club" and "Anthem." (Though the latter is to some extent a gimmick.)<BR/><BR/>Know any others?David Isaakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04928598446742324391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8371628584376797540.post-83294467095411803762009-03-26T10:24:00.000-07:002009-03-26T10:24:00.000-07:00"Though I will be talking about first-person plura..."Though I will be talking about first-person plural a little bit..."<BR/><BR/>The Virgin Suicides?Tim Strettonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08598897603628943741noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8371628584376797540.post-12000608897580540182009-03-26T09:21:00.000-07:002009-03-26T09:21:00.000-07:00Heya, Jen--I'm in so position to teach a master cl...Heya, Jen--<BR/><BR/>I'm in so position to teach a master class. But I think I can manage a preliminary survey of the field--and keep people from jabbing themselves in the eye with sharp objects.<BR/><BR/>Your book does indeed sound like a special case. Though I will be talking about first-person plural a little bit...David Isaakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04928598446742324391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8371628584376797540.post-31821892169578651772009-03-26T08:24:00.000-07:002009-03-26T08:24:00.000-07:00We talk about POV all the time at my writers gro...We talk about POV <I> all the time </I> at my writers group and I think any kind of master class you'd wanna do is one for which I would sign up. (Yeah, yeah, you can do one on dangling prepositions too, while it you are at.) I might add, though, if you have two characters who are sharing a collective mind, you can be a lot more fluid in the whole POV thing. I can't imagine a whole lot of fiction has characters like that, but, uh, mine does.Jenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16634046522715920069noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8371628584376797540.post-73939479349157045412009-03-24T11:38:00.000-07:002009-03-24T11:38:00.000-07:00David:I emailed you last night. Did you get it???M...David:<BR/><BR/>I emailed you last night. Did you get it???<BR/><BR/>MagsMaggie Danahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09397320196343147825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8371628584376797540.post-51444382655082058262009-03-24T09:28:00.000-07:002009-03-24T09:28:00.000-07:00Hi, Matt--As you point out, POV is one of the shar...Hi, Matt--<BR/><BR/>As you point out, POV is one of the sharpest weapons a novelist possesses. Wielded with skill, it can produce amazing effects.<BR/><BR/>Changing POV always makes certain demands of the reader, so it has a cost. But in the example you cite, you are deciding to pay that price to achieve a striking effect. Risky? Sure. But enjoyable writing is always a bit audacious.<BR/><BR/>What concerns me aren't conscious artistic decisons of the type you're discussing. Through experience (if you're like me, some of it was bitter), you know what you're doing when you decide to put in a break and change POV. <BR/><BR/>You know it's a risk. You are aware that you are leaving one POV and entering another. And you do this with a break in the text. Like anything we write, it might or might not work out they way you'd like, but you are doing it the same way a general might try an unorthodox tactic.<BR/><BR/>What really concerns me is when I see writers who seem to change POV briefly almost by accident--either by just suddenly darting into anther POV, or by doing things that make the POV wobble or drift. (These are almost never in published manuscripts, by the way. A lack of basic control over POV is a guaranteed way to put off editors and agents.) In such cases, I think it's because the writers don't yet have the real dynamics of POV in their bones. I don't think they are even aware that it's something that needs to be controlled!David Isaakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04928598446742324391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8371628584376797540.post-62928858575906034142009-03-24T03:28:00.000-07:002009-03-24T03:28:00.000-07:00David, you've done it again by upsetting a perfect...David, you've done it again by upsetting a perfect morning's writing by getting me to think about something other than the work in progress!! Still, what a diversion? Thank you for posting this...<BR/><BR/>POV is truly a minefield. I've ballsed this up quite a few times before, but have since learned to control those out-of-body urges. <BR/><BR/>If the desire becomes too much, I use that tried and tested device of splitting the chapter into parts, writing the following section from the POV of another character. Sometimes it works, throwing a curve-ball to the reader when you're writing largely from one person's bias, and then you end the chapter with someone who’s POV has largely been sidelined, to give the reader something to think about. For example: Bob has been trying to seduce Kathy, and we spend most of the chapter believing he has a good chance of getting her into bed, but the last section, from Kathy’s POV - about three paragraphs long - shows he hasn't got a chance in hell, and never had. <BR/><BR/>It doesn’t always work (can feel too much of a device it’s Kathy’s <EM>only</EM> POV) but with a little consistency it can work quite well, especially as a counterpoint to a character’s POV if that character is unlikeable… or insane. In that case, taking a break to get inside someone else's head can be a blessed relief...mattfwcurran.com Web Admin https://www.blogger.com/profile/13651266491906006561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8371628584376797540.post-47775647739273360352009-03-23T18:17:00.000-07:002009-03-23T18:17:00.000-07:00Mags, you were just about responsible for my spewi...Mags, you were just about responsible for my spewing hot chocolate all over the keyboard.<BR/><BR/>I managed to avert that, but I'm still coughing...David Isaakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04928598446742324391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8371628584376797540.post-24238429310739927872009-03-23T18:01:00.000-07:002009-03-23T18:01:00.000-07:00Re POV switching in sex scenes, David said:"... I'...Re POV switching in sex scenes, David said:<BR/><BR/>"... I've never seen such a thing, but that's got to be disconcerting ..."<BR/><BR/><BR/>For the reader, too.Maggie Danahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09397320196343147825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8371628584376797540.post-82686894498208013742009-03-23T13:27:00.000-07:002009-03-23T13:27:00.000-07:00Hey, SBT--POV transitioning is a topic I will get ...Hey, SBT--<BR/><BR/>POV transitioning is a topic I will get around to eventually. Thankfully, that's way down the road in third person.<BR/><BR/>"Head-hopping" is to "POV switching" as "info dump" is to "exposition." That is, when a reader reacts to it as "head-hopping," that inherently means it didn't work for that reader.David Isaakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04928598446742324391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8371628584376797540.post-25588321347163716232009-03-23T13:22:00.000-07:002009-03-23T13:22:00.000-07:00Hi, Tim--I find that how the transition is modulat...Hi, Tim--<BR/><BR/>I find that how the transition is modulated is the key to the whole thing with POV switches. I'm with you in that I find it disorienting to be tossed from head to head in the same interaction, but some writers can do it so nicely that I don't even notice it's happening.<BR/><BR/>I've never read Cecilia Holland, but some very good writers do abrupt POV shifts. In some--but not all--of his fiction, Larry McMurtry does this. He seems to do it as an odd distancing mechanism--uses it sort of the way that Dickens used caricature for secondary characters.<BR/><BR/>I'm told by friends that some romance writers shift between POVs in love (and sex) scenes. I've never seen such a thing, but that's got to be disconcerting...David Isaakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04928598446742324391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8371628584376797540.post-16163333913742503922009-03-23T11:31:00.000-07:002009-03-23T11:31:00.000-07:00Not precisely what you're talking about, but the l...Not precisely what you're talking about, but the late, great John Updike head-hops a lot in "Terrorist" (perhaps he does this in his other books as well, but I've ony read this one bok). <BR/><BR/>Perhaps when you're that famous, you can get away with it, but to me it wasn't particularly smooth or well done -- it was classic jumping from behind one person's eyes to be behind the other preson's eyes, almot with every paragraph. <BR/><BR/>In two of my scenes in the current WIP, I've got one perspective transition in each. I can only hope they read more smoothly than "Terrorist" did to me.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8371628584376797540.post-21702534170571572222009-03-23T01:12:00.000-07:002009-03-23T01:12:00.000-07:00I'm looking forward to the rest of this.I've just ...I'm looking forward to the rest of this.<BR/><BR/>I've just discovered the highly-regarded historical fiction of Cecelia Holland. Hugely accomplished in many ways, but boy does she hack about with POV, if "Jerusalem" is anything to go by.<BR/><BR/>Since she's published over 20 novels, this is clearly artistic choice rather than beginner's error--but I find knowing what both characters are thinking during a conversation somewhat jarring.Tim Strettonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08598897603628943741noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8371628584376797540.post-39984321221744947732009-03-22T22:03:00.000-07:002009-03-22T22:03:00.000-07:00Hi, Creative--Glad to see you're still haunting th...Hi, Creative--Glad to see you're still haunting the blogosphere!David Isaakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04928598446742324391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8371628584376797540.post-3031039712361382302009-03-22T20:14:00.000-07:002009-03-22T20:14:00.000-07:00Oh yay, I'm the first commenter! Well. All I meant...Oh yay, I'm the first commenter! Well. All I meant to say was good post; once again I feel like you hit the nail in the head, verbalizing a difficult concept. I'm looking forward to part II.<BR/><BR/>-CACreative Ahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02960292977608812418noreply@blogger.com